June 23, 2009
Atun: In my opinion, each language has their variety
Roundtable Moderator: That is true, Phan Quang. David Crystal’s study showed that there are 4 times more non-native users of English than native users.
Chen Xiaoju 2: Hello, nice to meet you all. My opinion is to teach standard world English. The major problem is to get to know the authentic English in a non-English environment. Sometimes we have to create our ”Englishes” which bear a lot of ”Local” features.
Phan A Quang : I couldnot agree more
Dzung: I had experiences with English of people from different countries. So I ask my students to expose themselves to various English as much as possible by direct contacts, travelling, cable TV, internet. Standard English will become useless if people can’t understand you.
hafilia ismanto: The idea of World englishes, when I talk to my students, is that lots of people in the world use Englsih and it doesn’t have to be perfect.It encourages & motivates students use the language even if they do not master it well.
Roundtable Moderator: I think that it is important to teach the culture of the English speaking countries so that students have an idea of why certain features and forms of the language exist. What do you all think?
Roundtable Moderator 2: Good point, hafilia ismanto!
Phan A Quang : agreed
hafilia ismanto: Agree w/ moderator 2. My experience has taught me that..we may speak the language but still think like locals. So…it’s kind of speak globally…think locally.
Roundtable Moderator: It seems from our poll that 68% of you think we should focus on a standard English rather than on World Englishes.
Chen Xiaoju 2: English slang and idioms have become the most difficult part of the language. It seems that we can never fully understand them.
Dzung: I agree. I often push my students to travel to surrounding countries to see how English is used there and how their English is understood.
Atun: I agree that we also have to introduce the culture if the English speaking countries since language and culture can’t be separated.
Phan A Quang : learning about the cultures of the English speaking country is a must
Chen Xiaoju 2: I agree. We should try to teach/speak standard English.
Leena: hello everyone… i am tourism teacher… in this area the english is commonly using as commucation tools, do not take attention much in how good english actually…
Phan A Quang : as language is affected and valued by cultures
Phan A Quang : as language is affected and valued by cultures
Dzung: Quang, it’s not only a must. to me, it’s also fun and I am trying to transfer it to my learners.
Roundtable Moderator: How do you make that transfer with your students, Dzung?
Roundtable Moderator 2: It’s also important to have a good understanding of one’s own culture, and be able to articulate well when communicating in English. After all, communication is about two sides so it’s equally important to learn about the English cultures, as well as your own culture.
Atun: Yes. Let the students learn the standard, first so later on, yhey won’t ”get lost” when they have to produce a standard English in a certain condition.
Doan Ba Ngoc: I have some questions to all:
Roundtable Moderator 2: Pl
Doan Ba Ngoc: What is Standard English? Who speak this Standard? and Who are native speakers?
Roundtable Moderator: Please ask your questions, Doan Ba Ngoc.
Atun: I couldn’t agree more (moderator 2)
hafilia ismanto: Yes, leena…the ideais that communication takes place & messages are understood. This is very very much the case when you are teaching ESP. What do you want? Good grammar but no one understands?? Better pigeon English but everybody understands and you get what you want. But …my question…
Dzung: English is a means for my students to convey their culture and opinions to the others who can’t speak their monther tongue.
Atun: Well, Doan. I think there are British and American English as the standard.
Khuc Thien Nhi: I’m a student. I usually hear ”May I go out?” in the situation of asking for getting out of a room. But few days ago, an American said that it was wrong with native speaker. I wonder if anybody has ever been in this case.
Phan A Quang : Hi Atun. As far as I know, even in the US and Britain, there are many varieties of English
Leena: doan, ur right… nowadays in every country which english isnt their national language, the most important thing only how to transfer the idea.. when someone can understand what you means, thats the point..
Chen Xiaoju 2: To my mind, the RP (pronunciation), correct grammar, word choice are all elements of standard English.
Roundtable Moderator: Khuc Thien Nhi, I am an American and have often asked, May I go out? if I wanted to leave a room and needed permission. What did the American say you should say instead?
Atun: Hi Khuc, did the native speaker tell you why it was wrong?
Dzung: In my opinion, Standard English is the one used in international tests such as Toefl, Toeic, IELTS.
Khuc Thien Nhi: He suggested me saying ”May I be excused?”
Roundtable Moderator: Although Chen Xiaoju, even the British do not focus on RP any more. The BBC now allows other forms of pronunciation (Scottish, Irish, etc.)
hafilia ismanto: My question is…some people judge others by the ”level of proficiency”…so back again which level of world englishes can be acceptable? The American / British? The one who said ”May I go out” is not common for native speakers?
Roundtable Moderator 2: So is May i go out kind of learner English? How about learners say, ”
Roundtable Moderator 2: ”
Khuc Thien Nhi: I completely agree with Leena.
Atun: Hi Phan, that’s right. But, when we talk about the standard English, we have to refer to the English which is commonly used by the native. what do you tnik?
Roundtable Moderator: Khuc Thien Nhi, then that is a matter of formal vs informal. Both forms are correct.
Atun: I think so, RM (Roundtable Moderator)
Leena: for academic purpose dzung.. for the others purpose, communication for example.. we dont need much about standard.. or anykind of it..
Roundtable Moderator: I agree with Atun that standard English is that English used by the native speakers.
Phan A Quang : I agreed Atun.
Khuc Thien Nhi: He said ”May I go out?” was used to asking for going out of a house or a building.
Biljana: Since our students will more often speak with non-native speakers of English, I think that we should include different variants of English in our teaching, and not only stick to British or American English
Phan A Quang : Hi RM i think it should be ‘ by the mojority of native speakers’
Roundtable Moderator: Good point, Phan Quang.
Atun: Woow, Khuc..I’ve never read such information in grammar books or dictionaries.
Roundtable Moderator 2: It’s really hard to have our students learn the real standard world English. consciouly or not, as language learners, we keep embedding our own cultural characteristics in English.
Dzung: I agree, Leena. When I was in Italy. Italian people could understand my English, but not English of English people who were working there. You know why. I have been a English learner so I know how to convey my ideas clearly. But these Englsih people at the time thought their English was native enough so if we didn’t understand, it’s our fault.
Roundtable Moderator: Atun, there are differences between formal English and informal English, between polite English and impolite English, between colloquial and non-colloquial English. There are regional dialects and differences as well.
jusnidar 2: Do you think we, Indonesians, would have our English one day?
Dzung: Why not, Jusnidar?
hafilia ismanto: TOEIC, TOEFL, IELTS I’d like to know…from those who agreed that we focus on world Englishes…what exactly are the characteristics of ”world Englishes” that you are thinking of?
John Scacco: Re: Which version to learn, I always tell my students (or told, since I don’t have many now!) to learn one version of English. The differences between British, American, Australian, etc. are really quite small. With 1,000,000 words in the English vocabulary, we need to keep this as simple as possible!
Phan A Quang : I think there will be
Atun: Absolutely, RM. What makes me wonder is the explanation sounds weird to me..Maybe, that because I haven’t read other references.
Leena 2: english doesnt belong to one country… every country can has english.. some friends have realized about it earlier jusnidar..
Roundtable Moderator: Jusnidar, there is already an Indonesian English.
Dzung: John, if I were you, I would teach all versions.
Leena 2: yes RM.. Indonesian english, american english, sngaporean english…
Phan A Quang : Hi Dzung, hopefully we can
Atun: Teach all versions, Dzung??? Don’t you think that your students will get confused??
Chen Xiaoju 2: But in China, we regard Chinese English ”Chinglish” as unacceptable. Sorry to say so.
Roundtable Moderator 2: I think for language teachers, we need to set realistic goals for our students. Shall we make a difference for beginning ones and more advanced ones? Like, only to get the meaning cross or, to be able to communicate appropriately and eloquently?
Phanisara: Words are powerful. Sometimes only ”standard” English might not convey exact same messages and thoughts to the local people.
Roundtable Moderator: Chen Xiaoju, that is becaue Chinglish is more bad translation than it is Chinese English.
Biljana: we cannot teach all the variants, but we should expose our students to different variants, for example when we do listening exercises
Leena 2: everybody, tell me, why we should have and focused to a standard world english? do it is really needed?
Phan A Quang : Sorry why?
Phan A Quang : Hi Leena, to some extent
Roundtable Moderator 2: Chen Xiaoju, can you open the light is Chinglish, while Time flies! Long time no see! is Chinese English.
Roundtable Moderator: Phan Quang, I am sorry I lost why you were asking why.
Dzung: Different English versions make English attractive to teach and to learn, I think. I had to teach one version only, I would quit my job as an English teacher.
Dzung: Leena, we focus on standard English to get Toefl score.
Phan A Quang : as you see, most course books are written in American and British English
Khuc Thien Nhi: And in another situation, a friend of my friend from Australia said that ”make up” was just a noun, not a verb when I used it as a verb like in dictionary, and he advised me to correct my use of it. I would like here to get more information from you all. Thanks.
Phan A Quang : sorry mistake in typing
Atun: @ RM2: the goal of teaching English is to make our students to communicative appropriately. How they get the meaning across while conversing is another subject: it’s about strategies to communicate.
Leena 2: i said it earlier dear.. that is only for academic purpose.. but how bout others field..
jusnidar 2: Ok, if that is the case, then we should promote our learners’ confidence in using English no matter whether they have some problem areas e.g. phonology or diction that is often influenced by their cultural background. What do you think?
Biljana: Atun, I agree, the most important thing is to be able to convey a message, to be able to communicate
Roundtable Moderator: Ping (RM2), I have to disagree and say that ”Long time no see” is not just Chinese English. We use that in the U.S. as well and it came to us from the American Indians.
Roundtable Moderator 2: Damon, I see you point. I guess it’s just that Chinese happen to greet people the same way as American Indians in that case.
Atun: @ Leena: other field??you mean ESP??
Biljana: Yes, I know that expression, and I am not from China
Phan A Quang : I think ‘long time no see’ is common in Vietnam too esp. in informal contexts
Phanisara: I like the idea of exposure. Why not the win win situation. Students can learn standard English and also aware of some world englishes that will be useful for them to sometimes use.
Phanisara: I like the idea of exposure. Why not the win win situation. Students can learn standard English and also aware of some world englishes that will be useful for them to sometimes use.
Dzung: Leena, in other fields, I think vocabulary is more important. Each field has its own technical terms and I don’t think they are standard English.
hafilia ismanto: Indonesian English, american english, Phillipino English…my point exactly…all these people have been taught standard English (since the idea of world Englishes is something recent) BUT..still they speak English influenced by their culture (language, way of thinking) an all. So, I think no matter what standard English we learn or teach, to some extend…as non native speakers of English, we eill somehow speak Indonesian/ Chinese/ Thai… English! Comments??
Roundtable Moderator: Great idea, Nina (Phanisara).
Leena 2: dzung, in vocational school english also has TOEIC. for working.. but in 14 years teaching, i have found out, that the students who can do communication in english (no matter mix with their culture grammar) can get score more than 500..
Roundtable Moderator: I believe that if a student learns standard English, they will be able to cope with other Englishes when they enounter them.
Chen Xiaoju 2: If an expression is well accepted by English native speakers, I think it has become ”standard” English no matter where it originates.
Atun: I do agree with you, RM
Roundtable Moderator 2: Good point hafilia ismanto.
Roundtable Moderator: That is true, Chen Xiaoju. Take the example, ”My Bad” which is very poor grammar, but it now used by many Americans including President Obama.
Dzung: I already spent years teaching my students Standard English. Then the language is changing and is adapted quickly. I get tired of answering my students’ questions about why, why and why. So the idea of world Englishes came to my mind.
Leena 2: yes hafilia.. u r absolutely right.. the of teaching englis is how to encourage our students in using english confidently.. without thingking about the grammar mistake or prononciation slip..
Atun: I’m all for it, Leena & Bu Hafil..:)
Biljana: but you do need grammar for tests like TOEFL
Roundtable Moderator: Everyone, I cannot believe that our hour is just about up. Thank you for this great discussion today. Do you have any suggestions for our next discussion in September? We will take August off as a break.
Phan A Quang : I strongly agree with Leena
Phanisara: Great input, Leena. To understand Englishes is to understand other cultures. Students gain better scores because they understand better the varities of language use.
Biljana: Blended learning
hafilia ismanto: How about mixed ability classes? I’m sure we all have had the ”FUN” handling those types of claasess & Students
jusnidar 2: What about ”Post Method Era” in September?
Atun: suggestion: what if you pick a topic which is related to the latest method of TEFL??
Roundtable Moderator 2: Our next webchat will be in September. Have any suggestions for the topic?
Leena 2: i go with hafilia.. thats a very good topic..
Phanisara: Interesting, Biljana. ”Blended”–
Atun: another suggestion: Teaching English to Young Learners (TEYL). It’s not easy to find references on TEYL since research on this matter is still limited.
hafilia ismanto: One more thing, hope we all realize that WE ALL HAVE BEEN USING WORLD ENGLISHES during our RT discussion. Nice to meet you all, eventhough in cyber. Hope to hear from you again soon…signing off
Roundtable Moderator: Atun, if you want the latest method you should refer to Jusindar’s suggestion of the post-method era
Biljana: we can talk about that, about using technology in the classroom
Dzung: Post- method era sounds interesting
Atun: Ok, then. Nice talking with you all…Looking forward to hearing from you..see you..
jusnidar 2: Thank you so much, we enjoyed the chat. :)
Roundtable Moderator: We will see you all on September 8th for our next Roundtable Chat. Thank you, everyone!!!
Biljana: nice talking to you all, greetings from serbia
Phan A Quang : Thanks all. Have a nice day!
Roundtable Moderator 2: Thank you all for joining us today! We’ll keep you tuned about our future rountable chats!
Leena 2: thank u, nice chat.. we were in world englishes.. see u all next chat… bye…
Chen Xiaoju 2: Thank you all.Bye.
Dzung: See you all again.
Biljana: Thank you all! Bye & all the best
Phanisara: Thank you. Bye for now. See you all next time.